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MARION
TOWNSHIP
AGENDA
and DRAFT MINUTES
March 7th,
2005
CALL
TO ORDER:
MEMBERS
PRESENT:
MEMBERS
ABSENT:
CALL
TO THE PUBLIC: Agenda Items Only – 3 minute limit
APPROVAL
OF AGENDA: MARCH
7th, 2005
APPROVAL
OF MINUTES FOR:
FEBRUARY 7TH, 2005
OLD
BUSINESS:
ZBA Case # 1-05 – Dennis GottschalK
ZBA Case # 2-05 – Fred Brown
ZBA Case # 3-05 – Fraternal Order of
Eagles
NEW
BUSINESS:
CALL
TO PUBLIC:
ADJOURNMENT:
DRAFT
MINUTES
MEMBERS
PRESENT:
John Lowe, Larry Fillinger, Dan Lowe, Linda Manson-Dempsey,
and Dan Rossbach
MEMBERS ABSENT:
None
OTHERS
PRESENT:
Annette McNamara
, Zoning Administrator
******************************************************************************************
CALL
TO ORDER
John Lowe called the meeting to order
at
7:30 p.m.
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
Zoning Board of Appeals,
February 7, 2005
Larry
Fillinger motioned to approve the minutes as presented.
Linda Manson-
Dempsey
seconded. Motion carried 5-0.
OLD BUSINESS
ZBA Case #1-05—Dennis Gottschalk (Spruce Run)
Call to the Public
George Kilpatrick, Mitch Harris
Building Co.: Mr. Kilpatrick
read the following letter
signed by Mitch Harris, President of
Turtle Creek Homeowner’s Association:
“As president of the homeowner’s
association for the Turtle Creek subdivision, I would like
to offer the association’s position
with regards to the proposed connection to our
neighborhood. We
are against any throughway connections to our subdivision as it will
increase the volume of traffic and
create additional safety issues for our residents.
The original
proposal did not have the connection
through Turtle Creek and it is our understanding that the
Township had suggested creating this
connection. We do understand the desires of the
Township and are confident that you
will explore all possible options during your deliberation.
Thank you for your consideration in
this matter.”
(Close Call to the Public)
Debra Wiedman-Clawson was present
from Desine Inc. on behalf of the applicant.
Ms. Wiedman-Clawson is asking for a
review of Private Roads Serving Single-family,
Multiple-family and Commercial
Developments, specifically paragraph 8 on the maximum
number of principal residences.
Based on the information they were given, the development is
designed with a boulevard in the
first intersection. It’s their
understanding that the township
would like to see a connection into
Turtle Creek. Ms.
Wiedman-Clawson said that a boulevard
was approved for Maple Farms;
however, that is a PUD. She pointed
out on the aerial drawing
numerous trees that would be lost if
a connection is made to Turtle Creek. The
developer
would prefer to leave the trees.
In addition, because the township doesn’t have a woodlands
ordinance, the developer could go
through and mine all of those trees and then build the homes.
The township attorney’s letter of
January 25 indicated he saw no problem with the boulevard.
A review by OHM’s traffic engineer
indicated that the thoroughfare and interconnection of
roads would be better.
Ms. Wiedman-Clawson said that Spruce Run has private roads.
If the
two developments are connected, there
will be 88 homes and that would also be in violation of
the ordinance.
If the entrance is redesigned, the safety onto
Mason Road
becomes a concern.
Desine
Inc.’s suggestion is to write easements for lot 13 as a walking trail.
This would increase
pedestrian traffic only.
Children would be able to get between neighborhoods, which seems to
be a concern of many parents.
As far as public services are concerned, there is a public road,
then a private road, and then a
public road. The police
department has already stated on
numerous occasions that they will not
patrol a private road and enforce the speed limit.
Secondly, school busses will not
drive on private roads, so children will be picked up at the
entrance.
Finally, the association maintains the private road—they are
responsible for the
maintenance of the road.
The township does not have a standard road maintenance agreement.
Developments have been approved on an individual basis.
In the last development that was
approved, which is Wolf Ridge, they
specifically stated that the township could do a special
assessment, which means the township
would take over the private road if the association fails
to maintain it.
She understands the township doesn’t want to be put in that
position. There
would be excess traffic coming from
Turtle Creek through Spruce Run to
Mason Road
. The
corner of Burkhart and Mason is going
to become quite congested in the future.
People will
cut through the subdivision to get to
Mason Road
and the expressway. Therefore,
Desine, Inc.
is requesting that the variance
be granted for the boulevard. The fire
department stated the IFC;
however, the township hasn’t
adopted that yet. They are only
a recommending body, not an
approval body.
Linda Manson-Dempsey asked how far it is from
Mason Road
to the back
of the last house.
Ms. Wiedman-Clawson said less than 1 mile.
She also said that recently the
township Planning Commission was
given a drawing for Marion Pines, and they discussed an
easement going through one of the
lots to Turtle Creek for a walking path.
Desine’s proposal
is that by having these walking paths
also added, there would be four neighborhoods connected.
The survey done by the township shows
that 36% of the residents want hiking trails, but nobody
wants to pay for them.
This is a way for the developers to contribute to the township, have
the
interconnecting trails for the
walkways, and the township won’t have to pay for them.
Dan Lowe
asked how a boulevard could be
considered two entrances. Ms.
Wiedman-Clawson said the
same as the township has approved on
other developments, and its two accesses. You
could get
an emergency vehicle down either one
of those lanes. Ms.
Wiedman-Clawson said it meets the
intent of the ordinance. Larry
Fillinger asked whether any plans were made to connect with
Maple Farms.
Ms. Wiedman-Clawson said it’s been discussed.
The problem is that the
association is not completely formed
in Maple Farms. Jack Lowe said in
regards to Maple Farms,
that was a PUD that was negotiated
with the Planning Commission. Mr. Lowe
read review
letters (copies attached) from Les
Rodwell, Fire Marshal, and from OHM’s manager of
traffic engineering. Dan
Rossbach asked for clarification that Maple Farms has private roads.
Jack Lowe said yes, and Turtle Creek
has public roads.
Call to the Public
George Kilpatrick, Mitch Harris
Building Co.: Mr. Kilpatrick
asked to address a couple
of points that he heard brought up
tonight. He asked if there have
been any significant traffic
studies for this area with regard to
the high school traffic. A lot
of the students from the
south end of the district, contrary
to what the letter states, will use this as a cut-through.
Jack Lowe asked why the students
would go through the subdivision. Most
of them would
use
Mason Road
. Mr. Kilpatrick asked if any
information has been presented regarding
knockdown gates.
Jack Lowe responded that the developer hasn’t proposed by the
developer to do an emergency
connection. Ms. Wiedman-Clawson said
it’s something they
could possibly look at as a solution
between Maple Farms and Spruce Run, but she wouldn’t
necessarily agree with Turtle Creek.
Kelly Sitarek,
3045 Ridley Way
: Ms. Sitarek said her
association documents indicated
that all of the co-owners of the
units are responsible to pay for the cost of upkeep, maintenance
and repair of the roads.
If there is more traffic coming through, which they will, they have
to
pay for it.
They bought their property because of the private roads with only one
way in or out.
The traffic on
Norton Road
is horrendous now. More people
will cut through the subdivision
to get to
Mason Road
. The children have to walk to
the bus stop, and she doesn’t want anyone
getting hit. Larry
Fillinger asked her opinion on a bike path. She
felt that was fine. Jack Lowe
wanted to clarify whether the roads
in Turtle Creek are public or private. Ms.
Sitarek said her
documents indicate they are private.
Mr. Lowe said it’s his understanding that the roads are
public.
After much discussion, Linda Manson-Dempsey asked Mr. Kilpatrick from
Mitch Harris
whether the roads are public or
private. Mr. Kilpatrick said the
roads were developed as public
roads and have been turned over to
the county.
Jean Porter, 235 Slider:
Ms. Porter said there is a safety issue because Turtle Creek has no
sidewalks.
The kids have to play in the street. If
they are interconnected with not only one, but
two other subs, that would create a
lot of traffic on streets where kids are playing.
Secondly,
Ms. Porter said she has a problem
with the discussion on the emergency vehicle access.
In
Turtle Creek, they have two entrances
with a little island in the middle. Why
can’t this other sub
have the same thing?
Jack Lowe said that it doesn’t meet the spirit or intent of the
ordinance.
Potentially, if there were an
accident right at the intersection, it could block the entire boulevard.
Ms. Porter asked why it was approved
for Turtle Creek. Mr. Lowe said
it was designed for
future connections.
Ms. Porter said it’s hard for them to swallow.
They buy in a sub that’s
going to be quiet, with one entrance
and 57 homes and that’s it, and roads they thought would
be private.
Dan Gerhardt,
3152 Painted Drive
: Mr. Gerhardt said the
parcel proposed for the connection
is an irreplaceable asset.
Putting a roadway through there is a detriment to
Marion
Township
and the entire county.
He also opposes a roadway through there because of safety issues.
Turtle Creek has no sidewalks, no
playgrounds, and they knew that when they bought there.
But there was also a closed-loop
system of roadways. Mr. Gerhardt
said some kind of
walkway or bike path is a tremendous
idea. The residents of Turtle
Creek care about this area,
and he hopes the township will not
put a roadway onto
Painted Drive
.
Mohammed Najafi,
3036 Ridley Way
: Dr. Najafi said he has a
Ph.D. in civil engineering
and is a PE.
He disagrees with the letter from OHM’s traffic engineer and
suggests that
another engineer review the plan.
Steven Gordon,
3027 Painted Drive
: Mr. Gordon says it seems
like, if you look at the one
proposal, there was a stub road
provided in one these communities to go into another
community.
Mr. Gordon asked if that was proposed when Turtle Creek was
built—is there is
stub road in Turtle Creek?
Jack Lowe said actually there are three.
Mr. Gordon said the
common sense approach would be if you
go onto
Painted Drive
, there is a tree issue, the
woods and everything’s that
natural. Putting a road in there would
be quite costly. Crash gates
would be an option because of the
fact that it wouldn’t be a thoroughfare. The
other option
would be to go into a road that’s
already proposed.
Debra Findlay, 297 Tortoise:
Ms. Findlay said she is concerned about the amount of
traffic and noise.
She said they chose this property for exactly what is there, and they
haven’t
even moved in yet and there’s
already talk about tearing it apart, excavating, etc.
Jim Smith,
2952 Painted Drive
: Mr. Smith said he has
three children and he is concerned
about safety.
Mr. Smith said he moved from a sub at Latson and
Eager Road
, which is
interconnected with other subs, and
he hit a child with his car. Is the
main concern Turtle
Creek or the new sub?
If there were a separate entrance from the boulevard for Spruce Run,
would we have to have this meeting?
Could the developer eliminate lot 28 and use it as an
entrance?
Ms. Wiedman-Clawson said the site distance wouldn’t allow that.
Jack Lowe said
the ZBA’s purpose tonight is more
philosophical; in other words, should the subs be
connected or not, what are the
benefits and detractions, etc. The
township has to look at the
community as a whole.
Mr. Smith asked which fire station these subdivisions will be served
by. Jack
Lowe told Mr. Smith where the fire stations are.
Mr. Smith said the proposed
thoroughfare wouldn’t service any
of the fire stations.
Darryl Paldan,
3077 Ridley Way
: Mr. Paldan thanked George
Kilpatrick and Mitch Harris
for addressing the residents’
concerns. Mr. Paldan said he’s lived
in many different
communities.
He said the residents of Turtle Creek moved here because of the
surroundings.
Mr. Paldan asked the ZBA to let
residents know in the future when it’s working with developers.
Gary Findlay, 297 Tortoise:
Mr. Findlay said it seems that the main concern is safety and
emergency access.
Couldn’t those issues be served by the crash-gate situation?
Then children in all three
communities would not be affected by cross-cut traffic.
The streets
would be much safer and emergency
vehicles would still have access.
Ron McNeal,
2968 Painted Drive
: Mr. McNeal has two small
children. At this point, the
children have to walk to the bus
stops and there are no sidewalks. The
subdivision already has
a steady parade of people shining for
deer, squealing tires, etc. Mr.
McNeal feels the
interconnection will increase the
nuisance.
Arthur Munsell, 645 N. Truhn:
Mr. Munsell said he’s lived here all of his life.
He drove a
delivery truck in the area for 30
years. You have to get from place to
place. He defends the
township 100%.
This is a growing community. If
people didn’t want to be part of a growing
community, why did they come here?
Mr. Munsell said he’s raised two girls; neither one of
them played in the roads.
David Guarino,
3100 Ridley Way
: Mr. Guarino said his was
the first house built in Turtle
Creek.
He asked why the roads were private to begin with and now they’re
public. He has
two small children and there are no
sidewalks. He moved out here for
privacy and a tight-knit
community.
Mr. Guarino said he had four cul-de-sacs he could look at when he
moved out
here and loved the idea of the wooded
cul-de-sacs with one way in and one way out. He
asked
if a boulevard was approved for Mitch
Harris, why couldn’t it be approved for Spruce Run.
Mr. Guarino also said he doesn’t
want the value of his home decreasing. Jack
Lowe clarified
that the boulevard entrance was
approved and most of the subdivisions were approved, for
the last several years, with the idea
of future connections. That’s what
the cul-de-sacs are for.
Mr. Guarino voiced concern about the
homeowner’s association documents stating they are
private roads, and now he hears that
the roads are public and the stub roads will connect all
of the subdivisions.
If they are indeed public roads, he said he has an issue with Mitch
Harris.
Mr. Guarino said he is trying to
protect his own little world.
Rachel Gordon,
3027 Painted Drive
: Ms. Gordon said part of
the big picture of Howell is
all of the nature.
That’s part of what attracts people to Howell, and the community is
growing
because of those areas.
To eliminate those areas detracts from our community.
She supports
the idea of the bike trail that could
be accessed by emergency vehicles. She
is also concerned
about the safety issues.
Dan Gerhardt,
3152 Painted Drive
: Mr. Gerhardt asked if anyone
is aware of where the
students will be coming from to the
new high school. Will there be
open enrollment?
Larry Fillinger said they’re
working on that right now. With
all of the new subs that are being
discussed at Mason and Burkhart, if
there is a throughway from Spruce Run to Turtle Creek,
the kids won’t wait at Mason and
Norton, they won’t go out by the expressway, they’ll come
through the sub to get to the high
school. It’s the ZBA’s job
to look at the future.
Jean Porter, 235 Slider:
Ms. Porter said if there were a survey amongst all three
subdivisions,
probably all of them would say they
didn’t want the subs to interconnect. That’s
145
taxpayers, and they want what they
paid for, and what they paid for is a nice, quiet sub.
Ms. Porter also asked if there is any
minimum price range in these two other subs.
Jack Lowe
said they are probably similar; the
land values and lot sizes are essentially the same.
Debra Findlay, 297 Tortoise:
Ms. Findlay said it was brought up earlier that the township
doesn’t have a woodland ordinance.
A developer could come in and clear the property, and
that would affect the value of Turtle
Creek. Jack Lowe said the township is
working on a
woodland ordinance.
It’s a very difficult issue to deal with.
There’s been logging done on
this particular site.
Jim Smith,
2952 Painted Drive
: Mr. Smith asked Jack Lowe to
clarify, using the drawing,
exactly how the subs would be
connected. Mr. Lowe said that
hasn’t been proposed yet.
He believes it would come at the
mid-point. Ms. Wiedman-Clawson
said there is research
being done now.
It wouldn’t look anything like this drawing. Mr. Smith asked if
Painted Drive
would be a straight road.
Mr. Lowe said it would be a T-intersection.
Julie Newman, 385 Tortoise:
Ms. Newman asked what happens with the public road and
private road as far as maintenance.
Mr. Lowe said it would be a private road and that would
have to be clarified with the
attorney.
Kelly Sitarek,
3045 Ridley Way
: Ms. Sitarek said she’s
confused on what the issue is.
If the residents of Turtle Creek and
the developer of Spruce Run don’t want the connection,
what is the issue?
Jack Lowe said the township will get information from the fire
department
on breakaway gates as an option, and
if that meets the International Fire Code (IFC).
Ms. Wiedman-Clawson said the township
just approved a development that doesn’t meet the
IFC, namely the Knolls of Grass Lake.
Bob Hanvey
said the Knolls of Grass Lake was
approved before the township approved
the IFC. Ms. Wiedman-Clawson
asked when the
township approved the IFC.
Mr. Hanvey said three or four months ago.
Frank Lopez, 341 Tortoise:
Mr. Lopez said he supports his neighbors, and these
developments were set up as private
roads. Mr. Hanvey said in general,
when the
condominium is first created, the
developer owns the roads. They are
private roads until the
time the second coat of asphalt goes
on, and then they become public.
Darryl Paldan,
3077 Ridley Way
: Mr. Paldan asked if the
decision is made to interconnect
and the site plan changes, when would
the decision be rendered? Jack Lowe
said Desine, Inc.
would have to provide another plan
and they would determine the timeframe. He
suggested
the residents check the website or
call the township.
Mohammed Najafi,
3036 Ridley Way
: Dr. Najafi again suggested
that another traffic
engineer review the site plan.
Kurt Sitarek,
3045 Ridley Way
: Mr. Sitarek asked how many
homes would be in Spruce
Run. Jack
Lowe said 36. Mr. Sitarek asked where
the gravel trucks will go, all of the lumber
trucks, the streets will be a mess.
Why does the township need to hook three subs together
for fire trucks?
Jack Lowe said it goes back to response time.
He said the township is going
to have the fire department review
this again with a breakaway gate. The
township is very clear
on the residents’ concerns that
there are no sidewalks, the interconnection and through traffic.
David Guarino,
3100 Ridley Way
: Mr. Guarino pointed out
that there are no streetlights in
Turtle Creek.
Dan Gerhardt,
3152 Painted Drive
: Mr. Gerhardt asked if
there’s any way to go back to
the fire department and ask some
questions about the number of occurrences within the past
five or ten years where a fire truck
was unable to get into an area because an intersection was
closed.
This is a quality of life issue, a safety issue for pedestrians.
(Close Call to the Public)
Larry Fillinger motioned to table ZBA
Case #1-05 until the April 2005 meeting.
Linda Manson-
Dempsey seconded.
Motion carried 5-0.
Dan Lowe said everyone moved out here
because they wanted a quiet, peaceful neighborhood.
Mr. Lowe said he grew up just down
the street from Turtle Creek. His
mom used to walk up
and down
Norton Road
. Now all of the new residents
are driving up and down past her and
she can’t walk on the street, so he
knows exactly what they’re talking about.
Now you’re saying
that “we’re here now, we don’t
want anybody coming by our section.” Maybe
we didn’t want
all of the new residents coming by
her section.
ZBA Case #2-05—Fred Brown
Larry
Fillinger motioned to table ZBA Case #2-05 until the April 2005 meeting.
Linda Manson-
Dempsey
seconded. Motion carried 5-0.
ZBA
Case #3-05—Fraternal Order of Eagles
Art Munsell was present on behalf of
the Eagles. The ZBA requested at
its last meeting that the
signage at the Eagles be cleaned up,
and this has been done. Jack
Lowe asked if the Eagles had
discussed using the sign with the
church. Mr. Munsell still they
are still working with them.
Linda Manson-Dempsey said the ZBA
needs to know what the sign will actually look like.
Mr. Munsell said pretty much the same
as the previous drawing. Jack
Lowe said if the church
won’t be sharing the sign, is it
necessary to have the three sections. Mr.
Munsell said yes, they
have a lot to advertise.
Larry Fillinger said while he does believe the Eagles should have a
sign;
however, the ZBA needs to see an
accurate drawing. Also, who will
be building the sign?
Mr. Munsell said they probably would
be working with Brownie Sign Co. They
do the signs
for First National Bank.
Mr. Fillinger asked if they’ve been given a price.
Mr. Munsell said if
they go with the digital sign, it
will be $50,000. If they go
without digital, it will be about
$20,000.
Mr. Munsell said the Eagles will be holding a meeting on Tuesday,
March 8, and they
will firm up how much money can
be spent. Mr. Munsell said he
would prefer the digital sign.
Mr.
Fillinger asked if Mr. Munsell could get an answer on which sign by next
week.
Mr. Munsell said probably not,
because they also have to get approval from the national
organization.
He felt he could probably have more information by the ZBA’s April
meeting.
Larry Fillinger motioned to table ZBA
Case #3-05 until the April 2005 meeting to allow the
Eagles to bring in an accurate
drawing of the proposed sign. Discussion:
Jack Lowe said this
is still a 20’ high sign.
If the church isn’t also using the sign, he would have a concern
about
whether the Eagles need all three
sections. Mr. Munsell said they
would like three sections
because that’s what they were
previously approved for. Dan
Rossbach seconded.
Motion
carried 5-0.
CALL TO THE PUBLIC
None.
ADJOURNMENT
Linda
Manson-Dempsey motioned to adjourn the meeting at 9:30 p.m.
Dan Rossbach
seconded.
Motion carried 5-0.
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